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中共剛剛成了最大贏家?! 還是大輸家?

—1. 魯德成訪談:劉曉波獲諾獎成海外民運兩派分道揚鑣的契機 2. 劉曉波獲諾貝爾和平獎及現今中國的局

1. 魯德成訪談:劉曉波獲諾獎成海外民運兩派分道揚鑣的契機; 2. 劉曉波獲諾貝爾和平獎及現今中國的局勢

10月8日,正在中國大陸服刑的異議人士劉曉波被授予2010年度諾貝爾和平獎,海外民運圈子圍繞劉是否有資格獲得此獎的爭鬥告一段落,隨之而起的是不絕於耳的讚揚聲與批評聲,劉曉波獲得諾貝爾和平獎已儼然成為海外民運對立的兩派「抗爭派」和「合作派」分道揚鑣的契機。

法廣蒙特婁特約記者 潘衛

早在今年3月,澳大利亞的袁紅冰,紐約的徐水良,加拿大的魯德成等17人發出了「關心中國民主的海外華裔給諾貝爾評獎委員會和哈維爾先生的一封信」,明確表示「不認為劉曉波是2010年諾貝爾和平獎的合格候選人。」10月5日,又發出了有14人簽名的「給諾貝爾評獎委員會的第二封信」,指劉曉波「在二十年前就與中共極權政府合作,喪失了一位諾貝爾獎得主應具備的道德形象。」

另一方面,今年4月,香港的司徒華、美國的楊建利、王丹、王軍濤、胡平等60多人組成了「推動提名劉曉波為諾貝爾和平獎候選人委員會」。6月,又成立專項工作小組,並多次發出倡議書及公告,表示「讓具有和平發展導向力量的諾貝爾和平獎,花開中國不僅是對劉曉波先生個人的嘉獎,更是對世界上人口最多的中國未來發展進程的一種期待,是對世界和平的促進,是對野蠻、專橫、暴虐的譴責。」
 
在劉曉波獲得諾貝爾和平獎之後,公民力量運動發起人楊建利認為這是「中國民運多年奮鬥和辛苦的代價」。前民陣主席萬潤南提筆抒懷,稱「一個獎項,伸張正義,公道自明。一幫奸人,瘋犬吠日,抓狂鬧心。」 10月9日,中國民主運動海外聯席會議主席魏京生對法新社表示:「劉曉波是願意與北京合作的溫和派,中國有好幾萬人比他更有資格獲頒諾貝爾和平獎。」

魯德成到加拿大後現場組圖

魯德成
 
因在89學運時用雞蛋襲擊天安門城樓毛澤東畫像而入獄,後流亡加拿大的魯德成參加了兩次簽名反對劉曉波獲獎的活動,他認為劉曉波獲獎使民主革命派和保共改良派分道揚鑣,從而結束了海外民運渾渾噩噩的局面,64事件21年來,海外民運一直在渾渾噩噩的狀態下度過,兩派涇渭不分明,流亡的歲月既蒼白又無所作為。
 
他認為劉曉波作為自由主義的異議人士喪失了基本立場,在將被判刑的時候,還大聲讚美中共人權紀錄的好轉,為中共粉飾太平。他說:「這一次最大的贏家不是劉曉波,也不是那些唱讚歌的人,最大的贏家就是中共。他們要的就是那種與他們客觀上合作的所謂的反對派。」
 
魯德成認為中國又在重演一百年前的歷史,重現康梁的保皇與孫中山革命同樣的分水嶺。劉曉波獲獎,會使保共改良派氣勢更甚。但他強調一百年前,康梁也曾紅遍大江南北,但後來的歷史自有說明,劉曉波們也只會是短暫的沾沾自喜,保共改良肯定是死胡同。
 
魯德成說劉曉波獲獎增強了民主革命派的向心力,使真正要推翻中共政權的力量逐步擴大。但他卻表示他們這一派不會有領袖,因為「真正要推翻中共的,是受苦受難的中國普通百姓,現在他們是沉默的大多數,但會逐漸地清醒過來。」
 
他指民運精英關注的是,在中共存在的前提下,進行改良,而民主革命派走的是下層路線和群眾路線。他說:「目前大陸湧現出很多維權勇士和鬥士,中共的鎮壓只會使民間反抗聲音越來越大。對於國內運動來說,海外只起後援作用,民主革命的有生力量和生命源頭還是在中國大陸。民主革命派實際上是草根革命派,民主革命說白了就是民權革命。」


劉曉波獲諾貝爾和平獎及現今中國的局勢

-- 魏京生接受全球性的法語電視網「法語5台世界」的採訪內容

2010年10月15日上午6點的黃金時間,全球性的法語電視網「法語5台世界」向法語世界播出了就劉曉波獲諾貝爾和平獎與現今中國的局勢對魏京生先生所進行的採訪。以下為魏京生接受採訪的簡述:

劉曉波獲獎有它的正面作用。近年來中共對人民的鎮壓比過去更殘酷了, 很多人對爭取民主自由感到灰心,情緒低落。有一個中國的異議人士獲獎,對老百姓的心情是一大振奮。它提高人們爭取人權民主的信心。這是好的一方面。但是劉曉波主張和政府合作,不要和政府對抗,而且協助政府批評和嘲諷別的反對派人士。這就會引導人們放棄和共產黨的鬥爭,減少對政府的壓力。

為什麼說劉曉波的道路是走不通的道路呢?這是因為針對一個蠻不講理的中共政府,只靠講道理根本就行不通。必須有強大的壓力,國際和國內的壓力,才能迫使中共政府讓步。引導人們放棄壓力,和不講理的暴政「良性互動」,向專制政府乞求政治改革,就等於放棄了和平演變的機會。最終人民的憤怒積累到一定的程度就會爆發革命和動亂。這對中國社會是個很大的損失,對國際社會和商人們也很不利。劉曉波本人向中共政府作了那麼多的妥協合作,甚至不惜以謾罵同道來討好當局。最後他還是被抓進了監獄。這本身就證明了他的道路是走不通的。

我沒有參加那封事先反對劉曉波得獎的簽名信。這是因為我認為任何一個中國異議人士獲獎,對中國人民都是個巨大的鼓舞,因為中國人把諾貝爾獎看得很重。所以在他得獎之後,我現在才開始公開批評他。我不希望人民被他的錯誤路線所引導,放棄壓力去和專制政府合作。因為劉曉波自己的遭遇就證明了他的合作道路是一條錯誤的道路。

在法輪功的問題上,有人同意他們的說法,也有人不同意。這都很正常。但是在人家受到大規模迫害的時候,我們都必須為他們爭取人權,抨擊中共政府。而劉曉波和他們那一伙人卻採取了諷刺、謾罵受害者,和當局一個口氣的做法。這是不對的。這不符合反對派人士的身份,甚至不如一個有良心的普通人。

說到劉曉波的獲獎會帶來民主運動的分裂。我想這種分裂一直就有,從一開始就有。中國的民運人士來自於不同的社會背景,也有不同的思想。所以民運一開始就是一個思想和行為不一致的運動。不是從現在開始的。

許多人認為我更有資格獲獎。但我認為現在的形勢西方人肯定不希望我這樣的人獲獎。他們不希望中國人民起來反抗,影響他們在中國的利益。很多西方的大企業知道沒有共產黨的壓迫,他們就不能在中國使用那麼便宜的優良勞動力,就不能賺大錢。所以他們希望中國人民都乖乖地和政府合作,接受壓迫,不要反抗,來保護他們賺大錢的機會。他們希望中共獨裁政府繼續存在下去。

那麼中國的民主應該走什麼樣的道路呢?我想只有兩種選擇。一種是南非曼德拉他們和蘇聯那樣,靠國際和國內兩種強大的壓力,迫使當局不得不採取和平演變的方式。這在中國是有可能的。但是現在西方國家出於經濟利益的考慮,越來越對中國減輕了壓力。國內人民的反抗如果也被引導向與政府合作的方向,壓力就更小了。那麼,那些困苦無依的老百姓怎麼辦呢?最終他們只好造反,導致一場大的動亂。這對中國社會和國際社會都不是什麼好事。

所以說,如果人們都被引導向和政府合作的道路,和平演變就沒有什麼希望了。就是本來希望改變的政府高層人士,也會改變主意,失去和平演變的動機。那老百姓就只剩下暴力革命這一條路了。如果老百姓選擇了暴力革命,我當然是站在老百姓的一邊。我支持他們以任何方式推翻專制政權。

西方很多人說經濟發展了,中國也就會民主了。但這不是中共政府的想法。中共政府本來的設想是經濟好了人民就可以不造反了,他們的專制政權就可以長治久安了。現在的經濟發展是有一部分人富起來了,可是普通老百姓仍然很貧困。巨大的貧富差距正是老百姓極端不滿,要起來造反的真正原因。這樣的狀況不是一個可持續的發展。中國的老百姓仍然非常貧困,中國的國內市場非常狹小,因此並不能說中國的經濟真正發展了。GDP增長得非常快,但是老百姓並沒有享受到增長的成果。是中國和西方的大企業得到了大部分的好處。這也是西方商界和政府支持中共政府的根本原因。

對中國的人權,西方政府基本上採取的是漠不關心的態度。歐巴馬政府上台以後,希拉蕊國務卿第一次訪問中國就表達得很清楚:人權不是她要關心的重點。他們的政策就是不支持中國人民的反抗,不激怒中共政府,以保障他們在中國的利益。所以對中國人權的關注,多年來都是在逐漸降溫。所以,這一次有一個中國人得獎,也是對中國人民的一個鼓勵。

對於我為中國民主所做出的犧牲,我沒有什麼可後悔的。無論在監獄裡還是在海外,我都是為了改變中國的命運而努力,而且很有成效。在監獄裡我是中共的一大麻煩;後來我同意出來,是因為我發現形勢變了。我出來能利用我的聲望做更有效的工作。確實這十幾年來做了很多重要的,有成效的工作。我對自己非常滿意。

電視播出的原始連接:

http://www.tv5.org/cms/chaine-francophone/info/Les-dossiers-de-la-redaction/video-redac-web/p-13350-Entretien-avec-Wei-Jingsheng-dissident-chinois-en-exil.htm

或訪問:

http://www.weijingsheng.org/interviews/interviews2010/FrenchTV5Monde101014WeiJSinterview.flv

魏京生基金會

Liu Xiaobo's Nobel Prize and the Current China

-- Wei Jingsheng's Interview on the 6 o'clock news on TV5Monde

On October 15, 2010, TV5Monde, a channel broadcast throughout the French-speaking world, broadcasted its interview of Wei Jingsheng in Washington DC, in regarding Liu Xiaobo's Nobel Prize and the current China.  The Following is a briefing of Wei Jingsheng said during this interview.

There is a positive effect of giving the Nobel Peace Prize to Liu Xiaobo.  In recent years, the suppression of the Chinese people by the Chinese Communist Party has become more brutal.  Many people feel frustrated and depressed in their fight for freedom and democracy.  When a Chinese dissident receives an award, it boosts the mood of the people and raises people's confidence in striving for democracy and human rights.  This is the good side.  However, Liu advocated cooperation with the Chinese government and not to resist the Chinese Communists.  He even assisted the government in criticizing and ridiculing others in the opposition.  This attitude will lead people to give up the struggle against the Communist Party and will reduce pressure on the Communist government.

Why do I say that Liu's road is a dead end one?  It is because one cannot use reason alone in dealing with the unreasonable Chinese Communist government.  We must have a strong pressure, both international and domestic, to force the Chinese government to make concessions. To guide people to give up their pressure, to make "positive interaction" with the unreasonable tyranny, and to beg the autocratic government for political reforms, is to give up the chance for peaceful evolution.  Ultimately, people's anger will accumulate to the extent that outbreaks of revolution and unrest will happen.  This result will be a great loss to the Chinese society, and will not be beneficial to the international community and business as well.  Liu Xiaobo himself made too much compromise and cooperation with the Chinese government, even to the degree of gibing other fellow dissidents in an effort to please the authorities.  Yet, in the end, he was thrown into prison. This in itself proves that his road is a dead end road.

I did not sign the objection letter written against Liu Xiaobo's nomination for Nobel Peace Prize before.  I think that any Chinese dissident getting this prize would be a great inspiration to the Chinese people, because the Chinese people view the Nobel Prize highly.  So only after he won this prize, have I begun to openly criticize him now.  I do not want people to be guided by his wrong road, to give up their pressure, instead to cooperate with the authoritarian government.  Liu's own experience has proved that his road of cooperation is the wrong way.

Regarding the issue of the Falun Gong, some people agree with their arguments, some people do not agree.  This is normal.  But when the Falun Gong practitioners suffer from large-scale persecution by the Communist Party, we must fight for their rights to criticize the Chinese government.  Yet, Liu Xiaobo and his gang satirized and gibed these abused victims, in the same tone as the Communist regime.  This is not right.  This does not meet the respect of an opposition, and even has no comparison to ordinary people with a conscience.

Regarding worrying about whether Liu's Nobel Prize will split Chinese democracy movement, I think this division has always been there, from the start.  Members of the China's democracy movement come from different social backgrounds, with different ideas.  So from the beginning of the pro-democracy movement, it has been a movement with inconsistent thinking and behavior.  Not just from now.

Many people think I'm better qualified for this prize.  But I think the situation now is that the Westerners do not want people like me to get the prize.  They do not want the Chinese people to rise up, thus affecting their interests in China.  Many Western companies know that without the help of the Chinese Communist Party, they cannot get such cheap and excellent labor in China.  So they hope that all the Chinese people will obediently cooperate with the Chinese government and accept oppression without opposition, thus protecting their opportunity for huge profits.  These Westerners do want a continued Communist dictatorship regime in China.

So which kind of road should Chinese democracy take?  I think there are only two options.  One is following Nelson Mandela of South Africa and the former Soviet Union.  When there is both strong international and domestic pressure on the autocratic regime, authorities had to adopt the way of peaceful evolution.  This is possible in China.  But now, due to the economic interests, Western countries have reduced the pressure on China more and more.  When the resistance of people in China also is guided to the direction of working with the Chinese regime, the pressure gets even smaller.  So, what could the suffering ordinary people without any help do?  Eventually, they have to rebel, leading to a major upheaval.  This upheaval would not be a good thing to either Chinese society or the international community.

So, if people have been guided to the path of cooperation with the regime, there will be no hope for peaceful evolution.  Even some senior government officials hoping for change, will change their minds, thus losing the motivation for peaceful evolution.  Then the people have no way out but a violent revolution.  If people choose violent revolution, of course I would be on the side of ordinary people.  I support them in any way to overthrow an authoritarian regime.

Many people in the West say that when the economy is developed, China will be democratic.  But this is not what the Chinese government thinks.  The original thought of the Chinese government was that when the economy is good, people will not rebel, and then they can have a long-term stability of the authoritarian regime.  Current economic development in China is of a nature that some people get rich, but ordinary people are still very poor.  This huge gap between rich and poor is the real reason that the people are extremely unhappy, and ready to revolt.  This situation is not a sustainable development.  Chinese people are still very poor, the Chinese domestic market is very small, and therefore we cannot say that the Chinese economy has really developed.  GDP growth was very fast, but ordinary people did not enjoy the fruits of growth.  Major Western and Chinese companies got most of the benefits.  This is also the root reason why the Western business and government want to support the Chinese Communist regime.

Nowadays, Western governments have largely adopted an unconcerned attitude regarding Chinese human rights.  At the beginning of the Obama administration, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton expressed clearly during her first visit to Asia including China that human rights is not what she is concerned about.  Their policy is not to support the Chinese people's resistance and not to offend the Chinese government, in an effort to protect their interests in China.  So the concern of human rights in China is gradually cooling down over the last years.  Now, with a Chinese getting the prize, we have an encouragement to the Chinese people.

Regarding my own sacrifice to democracy in China, I have nothing to regret.  Whether in Chinese prison or overseas, I have always been striving to change the destiny of China, and it is very effective.  When I was in prison, I become a big trouble for the Communist Party; Later on, I agreed to come overseas because I found out that the situation had changed.  I can use my reputation to do more effective work here.  Indeed for the past more than one decade, I have done a lot of important and effective work.  I am very satisfied with what I have achieved.

The original program can be viewed at TV5Monde's website at:

http://www.tv5.org/cms/chaine-francophone/info/Les-dossiers-de-la-redaction/video-redac-web/p-13350-Entretien-avec-Wei-Jingsheng-dissident-chinois-en-exil.htm

or by visiting:

http://www.weijingsheng.org/interviews/interviews2010/FrenchTV5Monde101014WeiJSinterview.flv

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