Release Date: August 13, 2011
發布日：2011年8月13日
Topic: Tyrants Must be Destroyed (Wei Jingsheng’s Interview by Greenpeace Magazine in Germany)
標題：必須摧毀暴君（德國《綠色和平》雜誌對魏京生的採訪）
中國：必須摧毀暴君
-- 魏京生生命中的十八年在監獄中度過，這個著名的中國異議份子對於所謂通過和平反抗能夠戰勝壓迫，持懷疑的態度
以下是記者訪談，黑體字是記者提問。
魏先生，在阿拉伯國家接連發生了茉莉花革命，中共政府害怕了嗎?
是呀！非常害怕。中共政府馬上中斷和封鎖了網際網路，許多人不知道發生了什麼。
在埃及，軍隊起了關鍵的作用，在中國，革命可能從軍隊開始嗎?
中共多年來害怕的就是這個，因此對軍隊不斷重組。這裡有個關鍵的區別就是，中國的軍隊幾乎是中共黨的私人軍隊，而不是象埃及的那樣對國家負責。
您的生命在監獄裡度過了18年，這段時間有什麼經歷。
肉體上的暴力傷害是由其他犯人執行的，被受到教唆的同牢犯人必須毆打你。但心理上的苦刑更為殘酷。這使許多政治犯無法忍受。而我當年被確診患有心臟病，於是鄧小平安排將我轉到海拔3000米以上的一所監獄。
您的心臟病是在監獄裡患上的嗎?
在監獄允許你家人看望你嗎?
在我入獄幾年以後，在我多次申請之下才允許家人探視。那時我母親已經去世。我的妹妹們和弟弟有時會看望我。我的父親已經很老，無法來探望--這樣也許更好，他這個人很情緒化，也許會說給他帶來風險的話。
您的父親是個堅信的共產黨員而且是高級幹部，他是怎麼看待你的作為?
在心裡深處他當然站在我這一邊。但是他仍然總是對我說，我的反對活動行不通，是沒有用的。
您長年被單獨監禁，過了這麼多年，您是怎麼做到再同人打交道?
我從未有過完全與世隔絕的感覺。不是還有警衛嗎？即使他們不是公開在我這邊，到底他們也是人，並有人的感情。
您批判那些和中國做生意的西方國家。應該怎麼和中國打交道？隔離嗎？
做生意沒有什麼不好，只要是過程是公平的。可是發生了很多事情，出乎我們想像。
您有一次說過，我們不僅僅必須關心中國的民主，也要關心西方的。
是的，對西方國家沒有太大希望，他們與中國進行頻繁的貿易來往。特別是安吉拉·梅爾克作為曾經在東德生活過的人，我原來希望更多，可是她與這個政府的關係竟然比美國還近。不僅是政治家被大企業收買了，甚至個別人權組織也一樣，簡直令我認不出來了。十年前他們做得更多一些。現在他們甚至為獨裁者說話。這就使得民主國家在第三世界國家的名譽受到影響。
去年異議人士劉曉波獲得諾貝爾和平獎，您表示不贊成，為什麼？
很多人比劉更應得這一獎項。而且西方人有個誤解：他們總以為，這個人在中國國內反政府-- 一定很特別。這是胡說。想想看：如果一個反對者在這個國家內能夠不斷活動和寫文章，只能是因為他與政府有交易並達成了妥協。在很長的時間裡，劉的文章是得到政府批准的。劉被政府所利用。中共政府經常將呼籲和平反抗的人士製造成「最喜愛的反對派」，以此來控制和顛覆真正的反對力量。
這麼說和平反抗是行不通的?
人們自然是希望能夠通過和平與理性的方法解決問題，但是必須先明確，如何定義「理性」。 理性化的和平反抗只有在與理性行事的對手打交道的情況下才能行得通，暴君是不會理性行事的，人們無法對他們理性相待，人們必須將暴君摧毀，才能建立一個尊重理性的社會。即使已經建立了民主制度，有時也必須使用武力，比如通過警察和軍隊。所謂永遠丟棄武力這一夢想，和共產主義夢想一樣--最後總會導向反面結果: 獨裁者取得勝利，人們更加深受暴力之害。我倒要問問你們德國人: 你們當年能夠和平和非暴力地結束納粹政權嗎?
你呼籲中國人民因此拿起武器?
不，這倒沒有。但是中國人自己知道使用和平手段不會取得進展。哪怕罷工也是一種暴力反抗形式-- 而且是非常有效的。上萬人阻斷大街--您還能稱之為一次和平示威嗎？而這是有效的。人們需要一個真正能夠使人達到目標的策略，而不是和平反抗的宣教。在這方面，西方人和中國人的看法距離越來越遠。以至於那些在中國宣揚和平反抗的人或者被中國人看作政府傀儡，或者被假設為想以此從西方獲得經費者。
是不是經濟資助對於反抗組織是沒有用的？
僅僅是經濟資助是不夠的。比如優施卡·費施。他和個別綠黨的友人過去經濟支援過這些人。可是當他成為外交部長以後，真正有可能有所作為的情況下，他反而縮手了。他總是推拒責任。最後證明他也不過是個廉價的政客。令我非常失望。
是美國總統比爾·柯林頓把您接到西方來的。
是的，對此我非常感謝。中共當局需要他幫助鬆動對中共的制裁。他與其達成協議，作為交換我被交給他。他畢竟還是做過一些努力，我認為柯林頓屬於比較好的政治家。
在美國您喜歡嗎?
每個地方都有它的優缺點。在華盛頓的唐人街，我身邊有很多中國人，這裡有各種各樣的人，一小部分是接受中共大使館的贊助，另外的人一向公開批判中共政權，大約80%不喜歡中共政府，但是又不想激怒它。
在這裡也會受到監視嗎?
是的，很多。可能比過去東德還要嚴重得多。
發表於德國《綠色和平》雜誌2011年第三期。採訪魏京生的原始連接：
（魏京生基金會謹向幫助翻譯此文的魏姍姍表示感謝。當年，為了營救她的大哥魏京生出獄，魏姍姍曾傾家蕩產，在世界各地奔走呼籲。）
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China: Tyrants Must be Destroyed
-- Wei Jingsheng spent 18 years in jail. This well-known Chinese dissident holds doubting attitudes about the idea that peaceful resistance could overcome suppression.
Because he dared to advocate democracy and publicly call the then Chinese leader Deng Xiaoping a dictator in the 1970’s, the current 61 year-old Wei Jingsheng spent many years as political prisoner. In 1997, he was released due to pressure from the then US President Bill Clinton. Since then, he has been living in Washington DC.
Mr. Wei, we now see one revolution after the other in the Arab world. Is the Chinese government frightened?
Oh yes, very much so. The government censors all Internet communication and many Chinese have not heard the news.
In Egypt the military played a key role. Could it start a revolution in China someday?
That is what the communist party has feared for a long time. It reorganized the military. The main difference is that the Chinese military has become a private army of the party and is not committed to the state as it is in Egypt.
You had to spend 18 years in prison. What did you experience?
The physical violence was left to the other prisoners, who were forced to beat me up. But the psychological torture was even worse. Many political prisoners can’t stand it. In my case a heart disease was diagnosed. Then Deng Xiaoping ordered my relocation and I was kept in a prison above 3000 meters (in order to aggravate it).
You became heart diseased in prison?
Yes and more: all my teeth fell out during my detention. Everybody says: oh you have such beautiful teeth -- but they are all fake (laughs). Also I have liver problems and diabetes. Here in the US it is rather impossible for me to get health insurance. It would cost a fortune.
Did your family visit you in prison?
They were allowed to after I requested that for years. My mother already had passed away at that time. My sisters and my brother visited me sometimes. My father was very old and could not visit me, which maybe was better. He is very emotional and might have made some risky remarks.
Your father was a convinced communist and had high rank. How did he see your actions?
Deep in his heart he was on my side. But nonetheless he always said that I would fail and that it was pointless to protest.
You spent a long time in solitary confinement. How did you manage to get along with people after such a long time?
I never had the feeling that I had lost contact with other people completely. There were my wardens. Though they were officially not on my side, they were still human beings with human feelings.
You criticize the western states' trade with China. How should they deal with China? Should they isolate it?
It is ok to trade. But trade should be on fair terms. Much more happens beyond our imagination.
You once said that we now not only have to worry about the democracy in China but also about the democracy in the West.
Yes. There is little to expect from the Western states, they are busy making deals with China. Especially from Angela Merkel, as a former citizen of GDR (East Germany), I would have expected much more. But instead she is closer to the Chinese regime than the US. And not only the politicians are being bought by big business -- also some human rights organizations, some I don’t recognize anymore. Ten years ago, they would have done much more. Now they even speak for the dictators. The consequence is that the reputation of the democratic states is damaged in the third world countries.
Last year, the dissident Liu Xiaobo received the Nobel peace prize. You criticized that – why?
Many other would have deserved the prize even more than Liu. There is a misconception in the West: They always think so-and-so is a rebel against the regime within China -- he must be someone special. But that is nonsense. Think for yourself: If a dissident is able to act and write articles against the regime, that is only because he has made a deal and compromised with the regime. For a long time, Liu's articles have been approved by the Chinese government. Liu is used by the regime. The regime often builds its "favorite opponents" from the ones that call for peaceful resistance. This is its way to control and subvert the real opposition forces.
Peaceful resistance will not work out then?
It is understandable that people hope to solve problems in a rational and peaceful way. But first we must define "rational." Rational, peaceful resistance only works when you're dealing with people acting rationally. Tyrants do not act rationally, we cannot deal with them rationally. You have to destroy them in order to establish a society that respects the rational. And even if you have established a democratic system, you will still have to use force, such as the police or military. This dream of abolishing force forever is like the dream of communism -- it ultimately leads to the opposite conclusion: dictators triumphed with victory and people suffering more from violence. Especially for you Germans -- I ask you, could you end the Nazi regime peacefully and non-violently?
So is this a call to arms to the Chinese people?
No, it is not. The Chinese already know themselves that they won’t get further with peaceful actions. But even a strike is a form of violent resistance -- and very effective. Tens of thousands of people blocking the streets -- would you call that a peaceful demonstration? And that worked. What the people in China need is a real strategy to get what they need and not just words preaching peaceful resistance. The perception of the West and the Chinese in this respect grows further and further apart. It goes even so far that people who promote peaceful resistance in China are either thought to be puppets of the regime, or it is assumed that they only want to get money from the West.
Financial support for resistance groups is useless?
You need more than that. Take Joschka Fischer for example. He and some of his party colleagues supported these people in the past. But when he became foreign minister and had real power to do something, he simply did nothing. He always passed on the responsibility. That really disappointed me. In the end, he turned out to be a cheap politician.
But US president Clinton took you to the west.
Yes, for that I am very grateful. But he also cut a deal with the Communist regime. The regime wanted his help to ensure that the sanctions against it would be loosened. In exchange, he got me. But after all he did something. I consider Clinton as one of the better politicians.
How do you like the US?
Every place has its pros and cons. The good thing is that in Washington Chinatown here I live among fellow-countrymen. But also here are different kinds of people. Some are financially supported by the Chinese embassy. Others openly criticize the Chinese government. The majority, around 80 percent, don’t like the regime, but don’t want to upset it either.
Is there a lot of spying on each other?
Oh yes, a lot. Probably even worse than the GDR (laughs).
The interview was conducted by Jens Lubbadeh
Published in the 3rd issue of 2011 of Greenpeace Magazine in Germany. Original link of the interview:
